What Can a Chicago Gang Member Teach Us About Our Divides? Amanda Ripley Explains

“You’re either with us or against us. You’re either racist or anti-racist. You’re either Republican or Democrat. You’re good or evil. Like, this kind of thinking does not serve us in the modern world.”
      — Amanda Ripley, from the 12 Geniuses podcast

In the latest episode of the “Debate Without Hate: Elections 2024” season of the 12 Geniuses podcast, journalist Amanda Ripley talks about the ideas contained in her best-selling book High Conflict: Why We Get Trapped and How We Get Out.

Amanda Ripley shares the story of former Chicago gang leader Curtis Toler. Curtis joined his first gang at age nine to find a sense of belonging and protection. As he rose through the ranks of the Black P. Stone gang, a local high school basketball star he idolized was suddenly shot and killed. Curtis became convinced that the rival gang, the Gangster Disciples, was responsible.

Driven by a desire for justice and fueled by pain and anger, Curtis spent years pursuing a vendetta against the Gangster Disciples. Like many in high conflict, he searched for a way to make his life meaningful. But Curtis was under the spell of the conflict, fighting the wrong enemy. The rival gangs, often separated by little more than geography or minor differences like how they wore their hats or belts, were quite similar, with members who could have been friends in a different world.

Amanda uses Curtis’s story to illustrate what she calls “high conflict.” When we let anger and pain control us, we often fight the wrong battles. Instead of finding real solutions, we get stuck in cycles of revenge and misunderstanding, not realizing that our true enemies are often the very conflicts that divide us.

Amanda says we must try to reimagine conflict — to see that it can be healthy and constructive. “When we are in a state of dysfunctional conflict, it means trying to find a way to be in good conflict, like the kind of conflict where we make each other better and stronger, rather than worse off.”

Learn more about the 12 Geniuses podcast series. 

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